Bhagavad Gita - Chapter 4 - Shloka (Verse) 19

Jnana Karma Sanyasa Yoga – The Yoga of Knowledge and the Disciplines of Action
Bhagavad Gita Chapter 4 Verse 19 - The Divine Dialogue

यस्य सर्वे समारम्भाः कामसङ्कल्पवर्जिताः।
ज्ञानाग्निदग्धकर्माणं तमाहुः पण्डितं बुधाः।।4.19।।

yasya sarve samārambhāḥ kāmasaṅkalpavarjitāḥ|
jñānāgnidagdhakarmāṇaṃ tamāhuḥ paṇḍitaṃ budhāḥ||4.19||

Translation

He whose undertakings are all devoid of desires and (selfish) purposes and whose actions have been burnt by the fire of knowledge, him the wise call a sage.

हिंदी अनुवाद

जिसके सम्पूर्ण कर्मोंके आरम्भ संकल्प और कामनासे रहित हैं तथा जिसके सम्पूर्ण कर्म ज्ञानरूपी अग्निसे जल गये हैं, उसको ज्ञानिजन भी पण्डित (बुद्धिमान्) कहते हैं।


Commentaries & Translations

Swami Ramsukhdas

व्याख्या--'यस्य सर्वे समारम्भाः कामसंकल्पवर्जिताः' (टिप्पणी प0 245) विषयोंका बार-बार चिन्तन होनेसे, उनकी बार-बार याद आनेसे उन विषयोंमें 'ये विषय अच्छे हैं, काममें आनेवाले हैं, जीवनमें उपयोगी हैं और सुख देनेवाले हैं'--ऐसी सम्यग्बुद्धिका होना 'संकल्प' है और 'ये विषय-पदार्थ हमारे लिये अच्छे नहीं हैं, हानिकारक हैं'--ऐसी बुद्धिका होना 'विकल्प' है। ऐसे संकल्प और विकल्प बुद्धिमें होते रहते हैं। जब विकल्प मिटकर केवल एक संकल्प रह जाता है, तब 'ये विषय-पदार्थ हमें मिलने चाहिये, ये हमारे होने चाहिये'--इस तरह अन्तःकरणमें उनको प्राप्त करनेकी जो इच्छा पैदा हो जाती है, उसका नाम 'काम' (कामना) है। कर्मयोगसे सिद्ध हुए महापुरुषमें संकल्प और कामना--दोनों ही नहीं रहते अर्थात् उसमें न तो कामनाओंका कारण संकल्प रहता है और न संकल्पोंका कार्य कामना ही रहती है। अतः उसके द्वारा जो भी कर्म होते हैं, वे सब संकल्प और कामनासे रहित होते हैं।संकल्प और कामना--ये दोनों कर्मके बीज हैं। संकल्प और कामना न रहनेपर कर्म अकर्म हो जाते हैं अर्थात् कर्म बाँधनेवाले नहीं होते। सिद्ध महापुरुषमें भी संकल्प और कामना न रहनेसे उसके द्वारा होनेवाले कर्म बन्धनकारक नहीं होते। उसके द्वारा लोकसंग्रहार्थ, कर्तव्यपरम्परासुरक्षार्थ सम्पूर्ण कर्म होते हुए भी वह उन कर्मोंसे स्वतः सर्वथा निर्लिप्त रहता है।
भगवान्ने कहींपर संकल्पोंका (6। 4), कहींपर कामनाओंका (2। 55) और कहींपर संकल्प तथा कामना--दोनोंका (6। 24 25) त्याग बताया है। अतः जहाँ केवल संकल्पोंका त्याग बताया गया है, वहाँ कामनाओंका और जहाँ केवल कामनाओंका त्याग बताया गया है, वहाँ संकल्पोंका त्याग भी समझ लेना चाहिये; क्योंकि संकल्प कामनाओंका कारण है और कामना संकल्पोंका कार्य है। तात्पर्य है कि साधकको सम्पूर्ण संकल्पों और कामनाओंका त्याग कर देना चाहिये।मोटरकी चार अवस्थाएँ होती हैं--

Sri Harikrishnadas Goenka

उपर्युक्त कर्ममें अकर्म और अकर्ममें कर्मदर्शनकी स्तुति करते हैं जिनका प्रारम्भ किया जाता है उनका नाम समारम्भ है इस व्युत्पत्तिसे सम्पूर्ण कर्मोंका नाम समारम्भ है। उपर्युक्त प्रकारसे कर्ममें अकर्म और अकर्ममें कर्म देखनेवाले जिस पुरुषके समस्त समारम्भ ( कर्म ) कामनासे और कामनाके कारणरूप संकल्पोंसे भी रहित हो जाते हैं अर्थात् जिसके द्वारा बिना ही किसी अपने प्रयोजनके यदि वह प्रवृत्तिमार्गवाला है तो लोकसंग्रहके लिये और निवृत्तिमार्गवाला है तो जीवनयात्रानिर्वाहके लिये केवल चेष्टामात्र ही क्रिया होती है तथा कर्ममें अकर्म और अकर्ममें कर्मदर्शनरूप ज्ञानाग्निसे जिसके पुण्यपापरूप सम्पूर्ण कर्म दग्ध हो गये हैं ऐसे ज्ञानाग्निदग्धकर्मा पुरुषको ब्रह्मवेत्ताजन वास्तवमें पण्डित कहते हैं। जो कर्ममें अकर्म और अकर्ममें कर्म देखनेवाला है वह यदि विवेक होनेसे पूर्व कर्मोंमें लगा हो तो भी कर्ममें अकर्म और अकर्ममें कर्मका ज्ञान हो जानेसे केवल जीवननिर्वाहमात्रके लिये चेष्टा करता हुआ कर्मरहित संन्यासी ही हो जाता है फिर उसकी कर्मोंमें प्रवृत्ति नहीं होती। अर्थात् जो पहले कर्म करनेवाला हो और पीछे जिसको आत्माका सम्यक् ज्ञान हुआ हो ऐसा पुरुष कर्मोंमें कोई प्रयोजन न देखकर साधनोंसहित कर्मोंका त्याग कर ही देता है। परंतु किसी कारणसे कर्मोंका त्याग करना असम्भव होनेपर कोई ऐसा पुरुष यदि कर्मोंमें और उनके फलमें आसक्तिरहित होकर केवल लोकसंग्रहके लिये पहलेके सदृश कर्म करता रहता है तो भी निजका प्रयोजन न रहनेके कारण ( वास्तवमें ) वह कुछ भी नहीं करता।

Sri Anandgiri

He introduces the next verse to praise the previously mentioned vision of 'inaction in action' with "tadetat" (that very thing) etc. "Yathoktadarshitva" (having the vision as described) means being endowed with the vision previously stated. The word samarambha (undertakings) refers to actions not by common usage but by derivation—He states this with "samarabhyante iti" (those that are commenced) etc.

How can actions be performed if they are devoid of desire (kama) and resolve (sankalpa)? Anticipating this, He says "mudhaiva" (meaninglessly/in vain) etc. Fearing that the performance of those actions would be accidental (random) in the absence of the intended result, and choosing the options that "the performance of those actions would be random whether active or ceased," He successively refutes them with "pravrittena" (by the active one) etc.

He divides "jnanagni" (fire of knowledge) etc. with "karmadi" (in action etc.). The word 'fire' is used because the knowledge as described burns only the fit material, not the unfit—this is the intended meaning. Anticipating the fame of Vaisheshikas and others as learned (pandita), even though they lack the knowledge described, and intending to convey their semblance of wisdom, He qualifies it with "paramarthatah" (in reality).

Sri Dhanpati

He praises that very thing with "yasya" (whose) etc. For the one who has the vision as described, all "samarambhah" (undertakings) are actions commenced; they are devoid of desires (thirst for fruit) and resolves (insistence on doership therein), which are their causes—or alternatively, kamah are the fruits themselves—and the resolves which cause them. They are performed merely as efforts (cheshtamatra) in vain (mudhaiva).

The knowledge which is the vision of inaction in action etc., is itself the fire; he whose actions, characterized as auspicious and inauspicious, have been burnt by that fire is called a true scholar (pandita) by the wise (budhah), who are the seers of reality.

Sri Madhavacharya

He elaborates on this very point with "yasya" (whose) etc., through five verses.

[He is] one whose actions have been burnt by the fire of knowledge in the manner described.

Sri Neelkanth

He praises the action-vision of the wise—to strengthen the contemplation of inaction in action for the ignorant—with "yasya sarve samarambhah" (whose all undertakings) etc., through six verses.

Whose, meaning the wise man's, undertakings are actions commenced by him; they are devoid of kama (desire for fruit) and sankalpa (the ego of "I perform this").

That person, by the fire of knowledge—meaning by the vision of inaction in action etc.—has burnt his auspicious and inauspicious actions, meaning he has removed them from the state of sprouting (ankuribhava); the wise (budhah) call him a scholar (pandita).

Sri Ramanuja

Whose, meaning the seeker of liberation's, all undertakings (samarambhah)—which are actions in the form of Nitya, Naimittika, and Kamya, preceded by worldly actions like acquiring materials—are devoid of kama (free from attachment to fruit) and devoid of sankalpa.

Sankalpa is the contemplation/identification of the Self as unified with Prakriti and its qualities. [The Mumukshu] is free from that [Sankalpa] because he is endowed with the contemplation of the Self's nature, which is separated from Prakriti.

The knowers of Truth call that person, who is performing action in this manner, a Pandita (scholar), one whose ancient actions have been burnt by the fire of the knowledge of the Self's true nature contained within the action.

Therefore, the 'knowledge-formed' nature of action is justified.

He elaborates on this very point—

Sri Sridhara Swami

He clarifies the two meanings stated in the Shruti 'karmanyakarma yah pashyet' (He who sees inaction in action), attained through direct statement and implication (arthapatti), with 'yasya' (whose) etc., through five verses.

Samarambhah are actions that are properly commenced. Kama (desire) means balam (strength/will to act), and [the actions] are devoid of the resolve (sankalpa) that stems from that strength—such a person is called a scholar (pandita).

The reason for this is: he whose actions are burnt by the fire of knowledge (jnanagni), which is born when the mind is purified by those undertakings, meaning whose actions are reduced to actionlessness (akarmata—non-binding nature).

In the Arudha (ascended) state, kama is related to the fruit, and sankalpa is related to the action—'this action must be performed for that fruit'—and [the person] is devoid of both of these. The rest is clear.

Sri Vedantadeshikacharya Venkatanatha

"Pratyakshena" (by direct perception) means that which is contrary to direct perception cannot be established by scripture or by logic.

"Kriyamāṇasya" (of that which is being performed) means that action which is long destroyed and reduced to a state of memory is not called "knowledge-formed" merely by the residue of knowledge; rather, the sentiment is that it is the action which is currently being performed.

Therefore, the meaning is "devoid of both kama and sankalpa," with this intention He says "devoid of kama" etc.

In the context of action, kama is phala-sanga (attachment to fruit)—with this intention, He says "phala-sangarahitah" (devoid of attachment to fruit).

Here, sankalpa is the contemplation/identification of the Self as unified with Prakriti and its qualities.

Pandita refers to one who possesses discriminative knowledge (viveka) between the body, Self, etc., which are to be rejected and accepted.

To exclude other independent, irrelevant knowledge, He said "karmantargata" (contained within action).

Here, the action currently being performed is not burnt by the fire of knowledge... hence, He said prachina (ancient/past).

Tattvajnah (Knowers of Reality) refers to those who possess doubt-free knowledge of the nature of the means to be attained, the attainer (Self), and the means of attainment (Karma Yoga)—this is the sentiment of the word budhah. He concludes the reply to the doubt with "atah" (therefore).

Swami Chinmayananda

जिस पुरुष के सभी कर्म कामना और फलों के संकल्प (आसक्ति) से रहित होते हैं वह पुरुष सन्त या आत्मानुभवी कहलाता है। भविष्य में विषयोपभोग के द्वारा सुख पाने की बुद्धि की योजना को कामना कहते हंै। यह योजना बनाना स्वयं की स्वतन्त्रता को सीमित करना ही है। कामना करने का अर्थ है कि परिस्थितियों को अपने अनुकूल होने का आग्रह करना। इस प्रकार प्राप्त परिस्थितियों से सदा असन्तुष्ट रहते हुये भविष्य में उन्हें अनुकूल बनाने के प्रयत्न में हम अपने आप को भ्रमित करके अनेक विघ्नों का सामना करते रहते हैं। कर्म करने की यह पद्धति कर्त्ता के आनन्द और प्रेरणा का हरण कर लेती है।हम इस पर पहले ही विचार कर चुके हैं कि फलासक्ति किस प्रकार हमारी शक्तियों को नष्ट कर देती है। कर्मफल सदैव भविष्य में मिलता है इसलिए उसकी चिन्ता करने का तात्पर्य वर्तमान से पलायन करके अनुत्पन्न भविष्य में जीना है। यह नियम है कि कारणों अर्थात् कर्मों के अनुरूप ही कर्मफल मिलता है अत निश्चित रूप से सफलता पाने का एक मात्र उपाय है वर्तमान काल में पूरी लगन से कार्य करना।यहाँ कहा गया है कि ज्ञानी पुरुष के सब कर्म काम और संकल्प से रहित होते हैं। प्रकरण के सन्दर्भ में इन दो शब्दों को ठीक से समझने की आवश्यकता है क्योंकि केवल शाब्दिक अर्थ लेने से यह कथन अत्यन्त अनुपयुक्त होगा। भगवान् के कथन से कोई यह न समझ ले कि समत्व में स्थित ज्ञानी पुरुष अपने स्फूर्त कर्मों में इष्ट फल पाने के लिए अपनी बुद्धि का उपयोग नहीं करता है। इसका आशय इतना ही है कि वह कर्म करते समय काल्पनिक भय चिन्ता आदि में अपने मन की शक्ति विनष्ट नहीं करता। वेदान्त मनुष्य की बुद्धि की उपेक्षा नहीं करता है। गीता में उपदिष्ट जीवन यापन का मार्ग तो हमें वह साधन प्रदान करता है कि हम अधिकाधिक कुशलतापूर्वक कर्म करके अपनी क्षमताओं का पूर्ण उपयोग करते हुए अपने कार्य क्षेत्र में सर्वोच्च सफलता प्राप्त करें।जो व्यक्ति बुद्धिमत्तापूर्वक जीने और कुशलतापूर्वक काम करने की कला को सीख लेता है वह कर्म करने में ही आनन्द को पाकर उसी में रम जाता है। किसी दिव्य और श्रेष्ठ लक्ष्य के अभाव के कारण ही हमारा मन अनेक चिन्ताओं से ग्रस्त रहता है। ज्ञानी पुरुष का मन दिव्य चैतन्यस्वरूप में स्थित रहने के कारण जगत् में सब प्रकार के कर्म करते हुए भी वह आनन्द का ही अनुभव करता है।ज्ञानी पुरुष की मनस्थिति के वर्णन का प्रयोजन अर्जुन जैसे साधकों के लिए साधन मार्ग का निर्देश करना है। अर्जुन के निमित्त दिया भगवान् श्रीकृष्ण का यह उपदेश सभी कालों के साधकों के लिए भी अनुकरणीय है।यदि हमारा पुत्र चिकित्सक बनना चाहता है तो हम उसे अन्य चिकित्सकों के संघर्ष की कहानी बताते हैं जिससे उत्तम चिकित्सक बनने के लिए आवश्यक गुणों को वह अर्जित कर सके। इसी प्रकार यहाँ ज्ञानी पुरुष के स्वाभाविक लक्षण बताकर भगवान् श्रीकृष्ण अर्जुन को साधन मार्ग में प्रवृत्त करते हैं जिससे वह जीवन के लक्ष्य तक पहुँच सके।उपर्युक्त लक्षणों से युक्त ज्ञानी पुरुष समाज के लिए कर्म करता हुआ भी वास्तव में कुछ कर्म नहीं करता है। उसके कर्म अकर्म तुल्य ही हैं क्योंकि ज्ञानाग्नि से उसके कर्म (अर्थात् बन्धन के कारणभूत अहंकार और स्वार्थ) भस्म हो चुके होते हैं यह सात्त्विक स्थिति की चरम सीमा है। भगवान् कहते हैं

Sri Abhinavgupta

For this very reason, He says "yasya" (whose) etc.

Actions being performed, having abandoned the resolve connected to the desired fruits, enter into the fire of knowledge (jnanagni), whose nature has been and will be described, and are burnt.

Sri Jayatritha

He introduces the next verse to praise the previously mentioned vision of 'inaction in action' with "tadetat" (that very thing) etc. "Yathoktadarshitva" (having the vision as described) means being endowed with the vision previously stated. The word samarambha (undertakings) refers to actions not by common usage but by derivation—He states this with "samarabhyante iti" (those that are commenced) etc. How can actions be performed if they are devoid of desire (kama) and resolve (sankalpa)? Anticipating this, He says "mudhaiva" (meaninglessly/in vain) etc. He successively refutes the objection by stating that the performance of those actions is accidental (random) whether one is active or ceased.

He divides "jnanagni" (fire of knowledge) etc. with "karmadi" (in action etc.). The word 'fire' is used because the knowledge as described burns only the fit material, not the unfit—this is the intended meaning. Anticipating the fame of Vaisheshikas and others as learned (pandita), even though they lack the knowledge described, and intending to convey their semblance of wisdom, He qualifies it with "paramarthatah" (in reality).

Sri Madhusudan Saraswati

That non-contamination by action of the Knower of Supreme Reality, due to the absence of the ego of doership, is elaborated upon with "yasya" (whose) up to "brahmakarmasamadhina" (by meditation on Brahman as action).

All the undertakings (samarambhah) of that Knower of Supreme Reality, whether Vedic or worldly, are actions devoid of kama (thirst for fruit) and sankalpa (the ego of "I am the doer"); they become mere efforts (vrtha-cheshta) due to the momentum of prarabdha karma, performed either for the welfare of the world or merely for subsistence.

The knowledge, which is the vision of inaction in action etc., is itself the fire; he whose actions, characterized as auspicious and inauspicious, have been burnt by that fire—according to the maxim "its attainment results in the non-clinging to and destruction of subsequent and prior sins"—

that person, whose actions are burnt by the fire of knowledge, is called a Pandita (scholar) in the true sense (paramarthatah) by the wise (budhah), the knowers of Brahman. For, one who sees correctly is called a Pandita, not one who is deluded.

Sri Purushottamji

Furthermore, he who acts without desire, by My command, is considered My opinion even among My devotees—He says this with "yasya" (whose) etc.

Whose all undertakings (samarambhah)—meaning the proper commencement of all actions by My command—are devoid of kama (fruit) and sankalpa (the desire for that fruit).

That person, whose actions are burnt by the fire of knowledge (Jnanagni)—meaning whose actions have been burnt by the fire of knowledge, and due to being burnt, are devoid of the seed-state that would cause the tree of future enjoyment (bhoga-vrksa) to sprout—that person is called a Pandita (knower of all reality as described in the scriptures) by the wise (budhah), the devotees.

Sri Shankaracharya

Whose, meaning the one possessing the vision as described, all undertakings (samarambhah)—meaning all actions that are commenced—are devoid of kama (desires) and sankalpa (the resolves which cause them); they are performed merely as futile efforts (mudhaiva cheshtamatra)—if active, for the welfare of the world (lokasangraha); and if ceased from activity, merely for subsistence.

The knowledge, which is the vision of inaction in action etc., is itself the fire; he whose actions, characterized as auspicious and inauspicious, have been burnt by that fire—that person is called a Pandita (scholar) in the absolute sense (paramarthatah) by the wise (budhah), the knowers of Brahman.

Furthermore, he who is the seer of inaction etc., becomes actionless (nishkarma) due to that vision, becomes a Sannyasin, and, undertaking efforts merely for subsistence, does not engage in action...

[Therefore,] if, due to some cause, the abandonment of action is impossible, then even if he engages in action as before for the welfare of the world, being without attachment to action or its fruit (since he has no personal purpose), he "does nothing at all," because his action is burnt by the fire of knowledge, and his action becomes inaction (akarmaiva sampadyate). Indicating this very meaning, [the Lord] speaks [in the following verses].

Sri Vallabhacharya

Anticipating the doubt that there should be no engagement in action after discrimination (viveka), even if one was engaged before discrimination, He accepts it with "yas tu" (but he who) etc. The meaning is: even if engagement in action is impossible for one who was engaged through insistence before discrimination, due to the absence of insistence after discrimination, engagement through habit is possible, aiming only for subsistence.

Anticipating the question: "Even with discrimination, if the direct realization of the Self has not arisen, how can action be abandoned by one engaged in it?" He replies "yas tu prarabdha" (but he who is bound by Prarabdha) etc. The connection is: even though he is engaged in the desired action (for lokasangraha etc.) when its abandonment is impossible, he "does nothing at all." How is it said that "one engaged in action does not do action"? To this, He replies "due to the absence of personal purpose." How then does he engage in action? To this, He replies "for the sake of the world" etc. How then is there a distinction between the discerning and the non-discerning? Anticipating this, He replies "by attachment and non-attachment to action etc." He says the Knower, having directly experienced the inherent bliss through the knowledge as described (vision of the immovable Self), acts without dependence on sense objects, having abandoned attachment to action and its result, with "tyaktva" (having abandoned) etc.

He qualifies it with "nirashrayah" (support-less). The meaning of "support-less" is being free from the support of the means to desired results, whether seen or unseen. [He explains that] even though he is engaged due to the impossibility of abandoning action (for lokasangraha), he is engaged from the world's perspective. "Does nothing at all" should be understood from his own perspective.

Swami Sivananda

यस्य whose? सर्वे all? समारम्भाः undertakings? कामसङ्कल्पवर्जिताः devoid of desires and purposes? ज्ञानाग्निदग्धकर्माणम् whose actions have been burnt by the fire of knowledge? तम् him? आहुः call? पण्डितम् a sage? बुधाः the wise.Commentary A sage performs actions only with a view to set an example to the masses. Though he works? he does nothing as he has no selfish interests? as his actions are burnt by the fire of wisdom which consists in the realisaion of inaction in action? through the knowledge of the Self or BrahmaJnana. BrahmaJnana is a mighty spiritual fire which consumes the results of all kinds of actions (Karmas)? good and bad? and makes the enlightened sage ite free from the bonds of action. The sage who leads a life of perfect renunciation does only what is reired for the bare existence of his body. (Cf.III.19IV.10IV.37).

Swami Gambirananda

Budhah, the wise, the knowers of Brahman; ahuh, call; tam, him; panditam, learned, in the real sense; yasya, whose, of the one who perceives as stated above; samarambhah, actions-whatever are undertaken; are sarve, all; kama-sankalpa-varjitah, devoid of desires and the thoughts which are their (desires') causes (see 2.62)-i.e., (those actions) are performed as mere movements, without any selfish purpose: if they are performed by one (already) engaged in actions, then they are for preventing people from going astray, and if they are done by one who has withdrawn from actions, then they are merely for the maintenance of the body-; and jnanagni-dagdha-karmanam, whose actions have been burnt away by the fire of wisdom.
Finding inaction etc. in action etc. is jnana, wisdom; that itself is agnih, fire. He whose actions, karma, described as good and bad, have been dagdhani, burnt away by that fire of wisdom, is jnana-agni-dagdha-karma.
However, one who is a perceiver of 'inaction' etc. [Perceiver of inaction etc.: He who knows the truth about action and inaction as explained before.-Tr.] is free from actions owing to the very fact of his seeing 'inaction' etc. He is a monk, who acts merely for the purpose of maintaining the body. Being so, he does not engage in actions although he might have done so before the dawn of discrimination. He again who, having been engaged in actions under the influence of past tendencies, later on becomes endowed with the fullest Self-knowledge, he surely renounces (all) [Ast. adds this word sarva, all.-Tr.] actions along with their accessories as he does nnot find any purpose in activity. For some reason, if it becomes impossible to renounce actions and he, for the sake of preventing people from going astray, even remains engaged as before in actions-without attachment to those actions and their results because of the absence of any selfish purpose-, still he surely does nothing at all! His actions verily become 'inaction' because of having been burnt away by the fire of wisdom.
By way of pointing out this idea, the Lord says:

Swami Adidevananda

In the case of an aspirant for release, all undertakings of actions in the form of obligatory, occasional and desiderative acts accomplished through the acisition of materials for their performance as also other works, are free from desire, i.e., are devoid of attachment to fruits. They are devoid of delusive identification. If the mind identifies the self with Prakrti and its Gunas, it is Sankalpa, i.e., 'delusive identification.' Genuine Karma Yoga is free from such identification. Such identification is overcome through contemplation on the real nature of the self as different from Prakrti. Those who know the truth call him a sage, who acts in this way and whose previous Karmas are thery burnt up by the fire of knowledge of the real nature of the self generated along with his actions. He is a true Karma Yogin.
Thus that knowledge is involved in true Karma Yoga, is established.
Sri Krsna elaborates this point again: